I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not gonna take this anymore! So you lie to yourself to be happy. There's nothing wrong with that. We all do it. We all go a little mad sometimes. Come on, if one of you nuts has got any guts. Let's put a smile on that face. You're only as healthy as you feel.

Listen to me! Listen to you?

By what right?

Because I have a right to be here! And I have a voice!

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Pop Culture Case Study.

Yeah, let's do it.

I'm pumped. Let's let the healing begin.

Welcome to Pop Culture Case Study.

Case Study, where we analyze pop culture from a psychological angle. I am your host, Dave. I'm here with my co-host, Will. Will, this week Tony comes out. This is a biopic about Anthony Bourdain starring Dominic Sessa of The Holdovers fame and little else because the other movies he's done are kind of bad. So we'll just stick with The Holdovers. So we didn't wanna do another biopic really, although I guess we kind of did if you use that term loosely. We are looking at the director Matt Johnson and his 2023 movie, BlackBerry. So Matt Johnson has gotten a little popular lately. Look at him. He has, just this year released Nirvana: The Band, The Show, The Movie, which is excellent by the way. So, um, I thought we— I thought about covering that one, but, uh, this just felt like a little bit better of a match. So where are you on, you know, Matt Johnson of Nirvana? Where are you on Tony?

So I, I didn't first see Matt Johnson at, uh, at the screening I'm about to talk about, but like in films. But I first saw him in real life at a screening of Matt and Mara, Kazakh Rozwanski's film from, I believe, 2024. Yeah. At TIFF. And he is just the coolest fucking guy on the face of the earth.

He seems like it in all the clips I've seen of him.

Genuinely, like, if you ever listen, just find a clip of him talking about any movie ever that you liked, he probably fucking hated it.

Yes. And I've noticed that about him.

I love that about him. I just like, not doing it for the sake of being a contrarian, just truly believes in what he believes.

He's a professional hater. He really—

Yeah, but I think the belief in his convictions, or the conviction in his beliefs, is the— is fully on display in what he chooses to make. I mean, from The Dirties to Nirvana: The Band, the Show, the Movie, and everything in between, like, this guy is just He's— he comes up with stuff that I don't know that I, I could have thought of anybody ever really coming up with, let alone myself coming up with. Um, so where I'm at on Tony is that I think this is going to be a big test because what he has done in the past has very, very much so been on his terms. Um, and that's not to say that the filmmaker making the movie doesn't have things on his terms, but it is a story rooted in truth, and it's based on Bourdain's book Kitchen Confidential, which is one of my favorite books of all time.

And a beloved figure.

And a beloved figure. I mean, I love— as complicated as he is, sure, there are a few, few celebrities and talkers and writers that I love more than Anthony Bourdain.

I agree.

And, you know, the, the book by Charles Learson, Down and Out in Paradise: The Life of Anthony Bourdain, another one of my favorites, just because I love— I will read anything about or by Anthony Bourdain. I think he's a genius. So, yep, I'm really, really fucking excited for this movie. I am cautiously optimistic about it. It's got 4 writers, which I just always shudder when I see.

Yeah.

You know, like if it was Matt— but the thing is, I don't know that Matt Johnson would have been able to just make a Tony Bourdain biopic if it was just him.

Just him. Yeah.

He's just— that's, that's not the way that he works. Like, he co-wrote the movie we're talking about today with Matthew Miller, who's a screenwriter. But like, 4 screenwriters, I always get a little nervous and just get like Avengers and Marvel flashbacks. Why the fuck are all of you working on this?

How many rewrites has happened?

Yeah, yeah. But it's, you know, it getting a sort of end of summer release should be a nice time. It's shot by Michael Bauman, the common collaborator and basically go-to cinematographer for Paul Thomas Anderson. Jay McCarroll, as he always does for Matt Johnson's movies, and also was the co-star of Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie, is the composer. I'm really excited for this movie, and I like Cessa. I know he hasn't been in great.

Yeah, no, I think he's holdovers, but I think he's got promise. I he's made bad choices. He's not bad in those movies.

Correct.

He's fine.

And also, he's young. Same goes for Matt Johnson. Like you gotta make money somehow. So why not be in a now you see me movie? Why not make The Anthony Bourdain biopic for A24. I don't see how I couldn't like this movie. So I am— I'm— it's— I'm kind of like a sucker for it already.

I know I'm worried about this movie. And yeah, man, if, if Matt Johnson wasn't directing it, I would be like, this is going to be a gigantic turd. This is going to be awful. Bourdain's tough. Bourdain's tough to capture, not only because, like you said, in everything that goes with him, his complications, you have to deal with that. You also deal with the fact that we know what that motherfucker looks and sounds like. He has been on our TVs for our whole lives. Folks like you, your age, basically your entire life, Anthony Bourdain has been a figure. and someone who's been on television and someone who's written books and someone who's been in the public eye. So that is tough already. I did think the trailer was pretty good. It was solid. My only qualm with the trailer was like, it like ended like it was a superhero movie. Like he kind of turned to the camera and said, I'm Anthony Bourdain. Like that's like the very end. Like I was like, ah, God, we were doing so well. We were doing so well. So, and Matt Johnson, we'll talk about it. He's an interesting figure to me because He's one of those directors that I, I didn't know that I knew. So when Nirvana: The Band, the Show, the Movie came out finally and I watched it, I was like, this, this might be a work of comedic genius.

Like, I—

and it's a strangely moving movie about friendship. Like, I did not— it's like also like a soft remake of Back to the Future. Like, it's, it's a lot of things and it's really enjoyable. And then I found out, I was like, oh, that's the guy who directed BlackBerry, which I had seen. back in the year that it came out. So I was like, oh, I didn't even know that I knew this guy. So after watching him in that, I'm a little more excited about this because I think he'll do different things. I think it's not going to be a straight up and down biopic. And it's got a really interesting cast. I mean, Stavvy is in this movie, of all people.

Jeez.

So it's like, yeah, sure. So I'm not like, oh my God, I'm really looking forward to this. But the highest praise I can give a biopic is I'm not dreading this. Which is where I'm at with Tony, you know, because most biopics I'm like, well, this is gonna be fucking terrible. I mean, I'll still watch it like a fucking idiot, but it's gonna be bad. Just like I watched Michael and it was— I knew it was gonna be bad and it was even worse than I expected. Like, this is— I know.

Why do we do that?

Yeah, well, because I can't, I can't say that this is horrible if I don't watch it. I can't, I can't engage with that. I can't really stand up and say, But I also didn't put any money towards it, so I feel pretty good about that. So yeah, so Tony. So now that we've talked a little bit about Tony, our theme is the Dunning-Kruger effect. And, you know, there's a lot that goes into it, but one of the big pieces of it is, you know, the kind of irrational confidence, right? the J.R. Smith of it all. Like these, these people who are not actually that good but believe that they are. They think they're going to be geniuses at whatever they do, which in the case of this movie, which we'll talk about, leads them down some pretty bad paths. So, Will, what is your Dunning-Kruger effect movie choice?

I'm, as I tend to be, back and forth. Like, do I want to be the cinephile or do I just want to be A nitwit. I'll go nitwit.

Okay.

I'm choosing Anchorman.

That's it. It's on my list. That's a great choice. Yes.

Yes.

Actually, just, it's strange that this came up today because I just listened to an episode of Good Hang, Amy Poehler's podcast, and Will Ferrell was on it. And she talked about exactly this, how Anchorman is a— Burgundy is a character that just is like so confident, so dumb, and just, just goes bull bull full through everything. And it's like, yeah, that's the Krueger-Dunning effect in motion.

It's funny. So the reason I even— like, the reason it was the first movie I actually wrote down is one, it fits the category perfectly. But I also— so I work as a video editor, and my— the client that I edit videos for, he— I can't remember what exactly he was doing, but he just started in the middle of the footage that I was editing just started going, unique New York. And, and then he just, he goes, the Human Torch was denied a bank loan. And I just, I'm sitting at my desk at like 11:30 at night, furious that I'm working, but wanting to get ahead for the next day. And I just start dying laughing. Yeah. And what did I do when I went to bed? I've rewatched Anchorman. So good.

It's just so good.

It's so fucking funny. And, uh, and it's so funny because these people are so stupid, yet think they are so brilliant. And than like the God's gift to news broadcasting. Like, but when you put the words go fuck yourself, uh, San Diego in front of the guy, he's gonna read it.

Like, he'll read anything that's on the teleprompter.

It's one of the— it's one of the most quotable comedies ever made. And yes, you know, is— and it's truly a great movie. Like, it really— before the Anchorman style of crude humor and stupid humor became like the only thing anybody making a comedy knew how to do. This was revelatory. And, um, you know, Adam McKay, we all have our hangups with his more serious fare, but when he is—

His comedies are so good.

He is— it's gold. It is pure gold. So, um, idiots abound in Anchorman, and I, I truly like— it's, it's a terrific film.

Yeah. Uh, for our non-sports fans, J.R. Smith is a basketball player. Look him up.

So did you, did you mention J.R. Smith?

Yeah. Irrational Confidence.

Yeah. Oh, sure.

Yes, yes, yes.

The ultimate example. The embodiment of irrational confidence.

Truly. All right. So this was a tough choice for me. There's a lot of good options. There are. There's a lot of dumb, mostly guys in cinema. There's not a lot of Dunning-Kruger effect movies with women in the lead. And maybe let's not look too deep into that. I'm sure there's— that's all a coincidence. So, but the movie I'm going to choose is, to me, top 5 comedy all time, and that is A Fish Called Wanda.

Nice.

Kevin Kline's character of Otto is the perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. The man cannot speak a foreign language and believes that he can. This is the level of confidence we are talking about. Like, he— and he— and it's not a bit. Like, he truly believes it. It is, to me, Kevin Kline's greatest performance. And I don't think it's close. This actually— and this is something we don't do anymore— nominated for an Oscar for Best Supporting Actor in an out-and-out comedy.

Yeah.

This does not happen. And really, it didn't happen that much then. So that is how good this performance is. And also, you know, Jamie Lee Curtis, John Cleese, like Michael Palin. Like, this is a stacked cast and a movie that— a comedy that still holds up. It is not bound by its time. You know, given that it was made in the '80s, it is tremendous. This is a movie that when I first saw it, I think I was like 15, and I became obsessed with this movie. Like, you know, sometimes people, we overexaggerate and be like, I've watched it like a dozen times. No, legitimately, I've watched this at least 12 to 15 times in my life. Like, I— there is a time when I wouldn't have needed to watch it. I could just quote the whole thing. Like, I was absolutely in the bag for this movie. And it is a comedy that I would recommend. I wouldn't say to absolutely everyone if, you know, you're not into sex scenes in your movie. They're funny, but it's pretty, it's pretty raunchy. It has some moments of raunchiness. There's a lot of male nudity. So if you're not into that, maybe you won't like this. But man, this is a really great comedy and a really great example of this particular effect. So highly recommend. Yeah. All right.

What else? What else is on your— oh, you want me to go first? I, uh, yeah. I mean, I, I, the first 3 bullet points are just catchalls for quote unquote franchises. Any of the Naked Gun films.

Yeah, that's on mine.

Any of the Pink Panther films.

That's a good choice. Yeah.

Any of the Mr. Bean films.

Sure, sure, sure.

I mean, they're all comedies about people who are just blissfully unaware of to reality, and it's beautiful. I also have Rushmore, Wes Anderson's film.

I had a feeling you'd bring that one up.

Confidence guy. That's kind of the one I was talking about. But I actually have a few on here that I think are pretty good movies. Shocking that I'm recommending you all watch good movies. Burn After Reading.

Yeah, it's on mine too.

Like The—

God bless Brad Pitt in that movie.

Oh my God, he's so good. It's one of those performances where you're like, can you just do this a couple more times?

Yeah, it's one of those performances I'm like, I can't believe this is happening. Like, this is brilliant. Like, this is— I mean, it's up there with his best, legitimately.

It really is. So it's fun. It was in a weird way when they showed the abduction stunt in Jackass: Best in Last with from the TV show when they abducted Brad Pitt kind of at the height of his Ocean's Twelve.

Going to take your word on all of this. Sure.

Oh, you haven't seen Jackass?

We've talked about this. I've never seen—

Oh, yes, we have.

You've never seen any of them.

That's correct. That's correct.

I apologize. We have talked about this.

Something in my mind. But yeah, so they abducted Brad Pitt in a stunt, and I was, I was like, I forgot they did this. And then I just thought of like Burn After Reading. Like, this is a silly guy if he really wants to be. Yeah, totally. He can totally commit to it. Like, he was all in on this bit. Like, yeah, you guys should abduct me in front of—

and he did it early in his career with True Romance and—

right, yeah, like Dags.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, absolutely a ridiculous funny performance.

Yeah, it's absurd. Thelma and Louise, like, yeah, absolutely played— he played dimwits. Um, and, uh, he's the best sexy idiot that we have working. Right, just truly. Um, so yeah, Burn After Reading. Um, I threw in Zach Cregger's Barbarian simply for the character that Justin Long plays.

Yep, yep.

Stupid guy. Um, and then I also have, uh, our beloved J.C. Chandor's Margin Call.

Oh yeah, yeah.

Um, because I didn't want to bring up The Big Short because frankly I just don't like talking about The Big Short.

That's a movie that was really good in the moment, and looking back on it, it's like, yeah, totally. Yeah.

But Margin Call is about a bunch of businessmen who think they have it all, and then it turns out you guys are breaking a shit ton of laws. J.C. Chandor, come back to us, please. I have the Dune films.

Oh, sure, sure.

Pick your poison. Yeah, guy thinks he is the savior to all men and women.

And even that, even his dad, even the Duke thinks he can just walk into this new world and solve all the problems.

Yeah, exactly. I have Gus Van Sant's To Die For. Yeah, yeah. Which is about a weather lady who gets sick and tired of her husband and enlists a high school kid to kill him.

Yep. As you do.

Which always goes well. And the last 2 I have are probably maybe the best 2 movies on the list, depending on who you ask. The first is Michael Bay's Pain and Gain.

That's on my list. Yeah. Yeah. That was almost my pick.

Tremendous. Was almost my pick when I—

my star movie.

If I want to go cinephile, I said I was talking about Pain and Gain because it has been reclaimed as— I know, I know.

But it has been reclaimed as this kind of modern You know, I just want to say Pain and Gain, from the moment I saw it in the theaters, was a 5-star movie to me. Yes, this is, this is not something that needed to be reclaimed for me.

Ahead of the curve.

I was ahead of the curve because I, I like, you know, fucking auteurs, even if they're vulgar. Let's go.

I agree. And then the last one is Rob Reiner's Princess Bride.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Also, Wallace Shawn, inconceivable. You know, he just guy thinks he's got it all, and it turns out he's just an absolute moron, and everything's gonna come around and bite him in the ass. Best use of Andre the Giant.

Yeah, ever. My only dog paddle. So the ones I have left on my list.

Anybody want a peanut?

Are any? This is really showing my age and my stupidity. Any Ernest movie you can put in here. Ernest Goes to Camp, Ernest Goes to Jail. I think there's an Ernest Dies movie. Any of them, just the biggest idiot you can imagine. On the other end of the spectrum, Wes Anderson's Bottle Rocket.

Yeah, totally.

That is absolutely an idiot just making his way in the world. Fargo, Jerry, not the sharpest knife in the drawer. He thinks he is, he thinks he's gonna get away with this very easily. It does not really work out for him. I guess relatively tied to our time right now, we just had an Evil Dead movie coming out not long ago. Army of Darkness. Ash just kind of stumbles and bumbles through life and uses the boomstick and just hopes everything works out. He's like, yeah, yeah, in any of these movies, yeah, I remember the chant. It's fine. I got this. Maybe not. Then the last one, Big Trouble in Little China, John Carpenter's classic. So aside from the Ernest movies, all good movies. So maybe don't watch those. But I mean, those have a special place in my heart because like, I was like 12 when those movies were popular, which is like exactly when you want to watch dumb, stupid humor. And Jim Varney really scratches that itch for stupid humor. So, yes. Yes. So lots of good options for stupid men. thinking they are smart. So enjoy, enjoy that part of cinema. All right. So we're going to take a break. I will talk about the Dunning-Kruger effect. And then we'll, we'll return to talk about the masterpiece, question mark, that is BlackBerry. All right. So today for the psychology for BlackBerry, we are talking about something called the Dunning-Kruger effect. So the Dunning-Kruger effect is yet another cognitive bias, and it describes a tendency for people with low levels of ability in a specific area to give overly positive assessments of their ability. And I think we definitely see this from a number of characters in BlackBerry. They think that they're really good at something, and they're actually not quite that good. They may be good in other areas, but not in this one. It also refers to the tendency of high performers to underestimate their skills. So there's kind of both sides of it. The effect was empirically studied by— you will not be surprised by these names— the psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger. This is in 1999. So in popular culture, this effect is often misunderstood, and people think that it means that people with low intelligence are overconfident. But really it's a specific overconfidence of people who are unskilled at particular areas. It has been demonstrated across many studies in a wide range of fields: politics, medicine, aviation, business, spatial memory, exams in school, literacy, politics, like all these areas. So the original study by Dunning and Kruger focused on logical reasoning, grammar, and social skills. It was usually measured by comparing self-assessment with objective performance. How do you think you did versus how you actually did objectively? For example, they might have them take a quiz and estimate their performance afterwards, and then they compare those estimates with the actual results. So there's a lot of explanations for this and a lot of criticisms of it. So there's a metacognitive explanation that states that poor performers misjudge their ability because they lack the ability to recognize the qualitative difference between their performance and performance in other people. And then there's a statistical explanation that states that the empirical effect might be a result of just a simple statistical effect and that people have a general tendency to think that someone— that they are better than average. And then there's the rational explanation that holds that overly positive prior beliefs about your skills are just the source of false self-assessment. And yet another explanation says that self-assessment is more difficult for low performers because they have very similar skill levels. Now, there's also disagreement about where this effect happens and how strong it is, as well as about, like, what that actually means. What is the practical consequence of this effect? Inaccurate self-assessment could lead low performers to make really bad decisions, like choosing a career that they are not fit for, or engaging in really dangerous behavior thinking that they would be fine in the end. So the Dunning-Kruger effect is usually defined specifically for self-assessments of people with low levels of competence, but there are theorists that don't restrict it to the bias of people with low skill, but also use it to describe the reverse— how highly skilled people underestimate their abilities. In this case, the source of the error may not be the self-assessment of your skills, but an overly positive assessment of the skills of other people. This can be understood as a form of something called the false consensus effect. So that's the tendency to overestimate the extent to which people share your beliefs, attitudes, and behaviors. So the most common way to measure this effect is, like we said, comparing self-assessment with objective performance. So self-assessment is sometimes called subjective ability. The self-assessment can be done either before or after the performance. If it's done afterwards, the participant cannot get independent clues during the performance as to how well they did. No good job, no that one is right, or that sounds right, because if you did, that's going to affect the self-assessment. So the measurement of subjective and objective abilities can be either absolute or relative. When done in absolute terms, self-assessment and performance are measured by objective standards. like the quiz example that we gave. When done in relative terms, the results are compared with a peer group. So in this case, participants would be asked to assess their performance not in, not in a silo, but in relation to other participants. Did you do better or worse or the same? The Dunning-Kruger effect can be present in both cases, but is more pronounced when done in relative terms. People are usually less accurate when assessing how well they did relative to their peer group rather than simply predicting their own score on an exam. So the main point of interest for researchers of the Dunning-Kruger effect is the correlation between subjective and objective ability. To provide a simplified form of analysis of the measurements, objective performances get divided into 4 groups. They start from the bottom quarter of low performers and proceed to the top quarter of high performers. The strongest effect is seen for people in the bottom quarter. They tend to see themselves as being part of the top 2 quarters when measured in relative terms. So like we were saying, the initial study by Dunning and Kruger examined performance and self-assessment of undergraduate students in inductive, deductive, and abductive logical reasoning, also English grammar and appreciation of humor. Across 4 studies, the research showed that participants who scored in that bottom quarter overestimated their test performance and their abilities. Their test scores put them in 12th percentile. They ranked themselves in the 62nd. So that is a massive error, 50% error. Other studies focus on how our self-view causes inaccurate self-assessment, and some studies even indicate that the extent of inaccuracy depends on the type of task and can be improved by becoming a better performer through practice. So obviously there's a lot of disagreements about how important this is and what practical consequences we get from it, especially as compared to other psychological effects. Claims about its significance often focuses on how it causes affected people to make decisions that have really bad outcomes, both for themselves and for other people. So there was a study from Jinek and Zajonkowski, and it found that it can have long-term consequences by leading poor performers into careers for which they are unfit. They think like, I'm really good at this, I'm going to be fine. I'm gonna test really well, so I'm gonna head towards this career that I'm not a good match for. And on the opposite side, high performers who underestimate their skill might not go for career opportunities that match their skills in favor of less promising ones below their skill level. And in other cases, the wrong decisions also have short-term effects. So overconfidence can lead— in this study by Pavel— can lead pilots to operate a new aircraft for which they lack adequate training or engage— or to engage in flight maneuvers that exceed their level of proficiency. Another area where the correct assessment of your skills is really important is in something like emergency medicine. So there was a study from Lisa Tennek, and it showed the tendencies of physicians in training. They tended to be overconfident, and this must be considered to ensure the appropriate degree of supervision and feedback. The Dunning-Kruger effect can also negatively affect things like economic activity. This is the case, for example, when the price of something like a car is lowered by the buyer's uncertainty about its quality. An overconfident buyer, unaware of their lack of knowledge, might be willing to pay a higher price because they don't take into account the potential flaws and risks. This also comes up in fields where researchers rely on people's self-assessments to evaluate their skills. So in things like vocational counseling, or emotional literacy. These things come up a lot. So according to researcher Khalid Mahmoud, the effect indicates that such self-assessments often don't correspond to the underlying skills. It implies that these people are unreliable and this method is unreliable for gathering this type of data. So this can cause a lot of problems for lots of research that, like, if we can't rely on self-assessment, that can be really, really difficult because that's one of the things we use Most, regardless of the field in question, the metacognitive ignorance linked to the Dunning-Kruger effect inhibits low performers from improving themselves because they already think that they're good. They don't think that they need help. But not all accounts of the Dunning-Kruger effect focus on the negative. Some also concentrate on its positive sides. I mean, you probably heard the phrase ignorance is bliss. So in this sense, optimism leads people to experience their situation whether good or bad, more positively, and overconfidence actually might help them achieve unrealistic goals. So to distinguish these negative and positives, there's 2 important phases that have been suggested to be relevant for realizing a goal. There's preparatory planning and there's execution of the plan. According to Dunning, overconfidence might actually be helpful in the execution phase because it increases motivation and energy. If you were realistic and thought there's no chance I can succeed, you're probably not going to succeed, and you're not going to have motivation. You're not going to have energy to do it. But if you believe that you're going to succeed, that motivation is there. But it can be very detrimental in that planning phase. So the person might ignore things like bad odds. They might take risks in their plan or fail to prepare for things that might arise. So being overconfident might be advantageous. for a general on the field of battle because of that extra inspiration that he can— he or she can give to their troops. But it is not helpful in the weeks before by ignoring the need to build up more troops, reserve troops, or get additional protection for your troops. So not great for planning, actually pretty good for execution. So there are historical precursors of this effect. Charles Darwin stated ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. And Bertrand Russell stated, in the modern world, the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt. All right, so to close it out, we're going to take a look at an article from 2025, so very recent, from the Journal of Behavioral and Experimental Economics. It's titled Revisiting the Dunning-Kruger Effect: Composite Measures and Heterogeneity by Gender. This is from Adams, Illyvia, and Schuur. So of course, the start of the article details the Dunning-Kruger effect, which they call DKE. People with lower levels of ability tend to self-assess their ability less accurately than people with relatively higher levels of ability. So there's a correlation between objective cognitive abilities and self-assessed abilities, and it is higher at higher levels of cognitive ability. So there's been a lot of debate as to whether this effect actually exists or if it's just statistics, as we mentioned. So in this particular study, they wanted to test whether it actually existed using a bunch of measures of ability and nationally representative data from a British birth cohort, cohort study. So the main sample they were looking at had 4,429 people, and they participated at age 5, 10, and 16. So they measured objective cognitive ability through 18 tests taken at those 3 ages. So it includes cognitive ability across a range of domains: mathematics, English, and IQ. So these tests are particularly strong because they look at the data longitudinally. So it's not just a certain point of time, but it's over these 3 different points. So we can see if it's changed or if it stayed consistent. They also constructed a measure of self-assessed abilities through 7 questions taken at age 10 and 16. It included questions about how good the individual thinks they are at math and whether they believe themselves to be clever. So there are 2 types of questions. The, the are you good at questions have 3 answers: yes, no, I don't know. And the other types of questions, there is a 3-category Likert scale, and they use, and they use them as they are. For example, Please say whether the following applies to you. I am clever. Applies very much. Applies somewhat. Does not apply. And what they found is that the Dunning-Kruger effect, according to this data, does exist in their data. So, and this is actually the first to look at whether this relationship is affected by gender. And they found that while the self-assessment bias is gender-specific, the Dunning-Kruger effect is not. The Dunning-Kruger effect comes from men relatively overestimating and women relatively underestimating their abilities. And of course, there's a cultural component here, right? Men in general, especially in the Western world, are taught that you are great, you are— you have to be the best, you have to be high achieving. And women in general are taught to be more low-key about their abilities. So there may be something happening here where you can't really trust the self-assessment because there's a gendered bias that comes in here. So, but this is something that occurs in not only in this movie, but in everyday life, is that we have to remember that we are actually pretty bad at assessing ourselves. And we're extra bad at it when comparing to other people. There's— I wish I could find it, but there's a very famous study that I learned about in grad school that said something like 70% of people think that their intelligence is above average. And I'm not great at math, but like, that does not add up. 70% of people cannot be above average. That's the whole idea of average. Most people are going to be average. Some people are going to be below, some people are going to be above, right? But 70% is definitely not above average. And I would bet that in that study, probably close to 30% thought that they were average. People tend to not think that they're below average. We tend to think that we, you know, we talked about Dunning-Kruger effect. Low-achieving people tend to think that they are better than they are. High-achieving people tend to think that they are less than they are. But high-achieving people are already starting at a higher level, right? So it's not like they're saying, I'm below average. It's like they're at a 90 and they're like, yeah, I'm probably at a 75. So a very different thing happening depending on where you start. All right, so that's enough psychology for now. We're going to take a break and then bring Will back to talk about BlackBerry. All right, so we are back. We are back to talk about Matt Johnson's BlackBerry, the kind of true story of the creation of the BlackBerry device. So— What can I do for you? Okay, picture a cell phone and an email machine All in one thing. There is a free wireless internet signal all across North America, and nobody has figured out how to use it. It's like the Force. Sorry, have you seen Star Wars? No. That guy is sketchy. I don't think he's sketchy.

The guy's a shark. I know how to market it, and I know who.

who we can sell it to, but I want 50% of the company and I've got to be CEO. I don't know who you think you are, but deal. Are you joking? We are in a race to get this thing to market and we are a year behind. I need a prototype.

I'll do it perfectly or I don't do it.

Mike, are you familiar with the saying perfect is the enemy of good? Well, good enough is the enemy of Humanity. What do you call it? It's called a BlackBerry. Huh. Try typing with your thumbs. Get this baby in the hands of every Fortune 500 executive you can find.

We call them CrackBerries. Come with us, sir. No, no. You want to be great?

You need to sacrifice. The more painful the sacrifice, the greater you'll be. If we put more phones on these networks, they're going to crash. Is this legal? You need to sell a million BlackBerrys. We are calling you psycho. We're in the middle of a hostile takeover. Do you know what the sentence is for multimillion-dollar What are you doing?

I'm doing it all.

You guys have no idea how to run a company.

What's happening, man?

I created this entire market. You said they were the best engineers in the world. I said they're the best engineers in Canada. What are they paying you? I shouldn't say.

They're paying me $10 million.

Yeah, I mean, As far as my history with it, I, I did not see this in the theater. Um, I, if I'm being honest, I saw the trailer and I thought, this looks like a pile of shit. I'm not watching this. This looks terrible. Absolutely not. And then I waited till it came on digital and I watched it and I liked it. I thought that was pretty good. I, you know, better than I expected. And, but I remember.

Yeah.

And I'm gonna demand some answers from you, Mr. Bjornar. I remember when this movie came out, people freaking out about this movie and one performance in particular.

Yep.

And I think you know exactly who I'm talking about, and that's Glenn Howerton of It's Always Sunny fame. And I, you know, we are here where the vampires hang out. That's great.

Okay, sure.

I enjoy his performance, but there was a lot of like, he should be nominated for an Oscar. This is really great. This is— there's so many levels to this. And I, I'm— I wasn't there with that movie. I think I gave it 3 stars the first time I watched it. And this is the first time I've rewatched it. And it improved a bit on rewatch. I actually— because I think I figured out the wavelength it was on. This time I knew what I was getting into and I liked it a little bit more. I'm still not there with Howerton. I just, I think it's a good performance, but I think it's kind of one level. It's a lot of, you know, he's a good screamer and he's done it in Always Sunny. He just does it with a bald cap in this movie.

That's kind of the only difference. Is your name Phil?

It is Phil. It's a lot. So I enjoy this movie. I'm just not quite as high on it as a lot of people that I know and respect, including you. I think you're probably a little higher on it than I am. I will say, had I not been watching this for the podcast, I'm 100% sure Tessa would've tapped out. Like, she was about 30 minutes in, she was like, I don't know what— he's still yelling? Okay, sure, whatever. He's on the phone, you know, like— and I was like, yeah, that's fair. So So, but what about you? Did you see this in the theater when it first came out? Were you aware of Johnson before this, or was this kind of your intro to him?

Um, that's a very good question. I'm gonna have to double-check. I think I was aware, like I had a vague understanding of what Nirvana the Band, the show was.

Okay.

Because I just found it funny. I never really watched it.

See, I didn't know about that until the movie came out. Never heard of it.

So. And, and, you know, so there's that. And, and I had not seen The Dirties, but I had seen Operation Avalanche. So actually, that is the first—

Okay.

Matt Johnson experience I ever had. BlackBerry, I did see in the theater in 2023. And purely based on word of mouth. Because there's a lot of that when people start, you know, when I don't, I don't remember if it was the trailer because I actually don't know if I ever watched a trailer for this. But when it first got announced, knowing none of the talent involved, it was like the story of the BlackBerry.

I was like, much like Tony, this is the same reaction, right?

Like, really? I need a movie about the BlackBerry?

Really?

Are we sure? Um, and then I saw it and I was like, that fucking rocks. Um, and what I— I'll get to the Glenn Howerton of it all. What I really love about it is that it, you know, it takes something that in theory my initial reaction to is apt. Uh, like, why do we need a movie about the making of this cell phone that, yeah, for a while was like the cell phone.

Right.

But then was—

For annoying businessmen. Yes.

Right, exactly. For annoying businessmen. But then ultimately was rendered useless the moment that the iPhone and its less successful competitors entered the game. Um, I mean, that's literally how the movie ends, just to spoil that for everybody. Yeah. That at one point in time, BlackBerry owned 45% of the entire cell phone market. Today that number is zero. Like, it is a, like, astonishing fall from—

It really was.

Grace.

Yeah.

And I just— that's what I love about the movie is how it is such a— I mean, it's really— it's pretty standard, but it's done— it's done well and entertainingly, almost with a thriller type Thriller comedy type element to it of this. We are rising, we are rising, we are rising. Oh shit! We are falling, and our harnesses came undone, and we don't have a parachute. And it's it's just immensely entertaining. I think Jay Baruchel is he's really good here. Good.

Yeah, I like him as a performer too.

You like him as a performer, and I think he's pretty strong here. Probably his best work. depending on who you ask. I think that I love, love, love, love Matt Johnson here. And one of the reasons—

Yeah.

We will talk more about it. But one of the reasons that I love Johnson, not only as a filmmaker who believes in his convictions, as I talked about earlier, what I love about his performances is that I never— I always feel like I'm watching Matt Johnson. And I can't say that about a lot of people. Like, there are a lot of people, Ryan Reynolds is the prime example of this. I can't do it anymore.

Mm-hmm.

Every time I watch Ryan Reynolds do anything, he is— it's the shtick. But Johnson's thing is not a shtick. It's just his personality, right? And he's playing it up for the cameras. But I love that about him. His energy is relentless and it's glorious. I absolutely love watching him perform. And I love watching the movies he directs because they bring the same energy to them as well.

Yeah.

Now, on the Glenn Howerton point, I think it's a really good performance, but I think it is slightly overrated as a performance because the familiarity that everybody had with him prior to this, and it's probably still the main thing that he's most familiar for, certainly, is It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, in which he has delivered for 18 seasons now a Titanic comedic performance.

Oh, I agree.

He's fucking brilliant in that show, and the whole cast is brilliant in the show. But he is like the engine for that. Yeah, and and his comedic timing. You know, I I quoted it off top. I could I could go go go go go quoting Glenn Howerton from It's Always Sunny. Like. Going to bed? What are you, 40? We're the same age. Just like little things like that where he just, just screaming. But it's hilarious because that's the character that he's playing, right? This movie, literally all his character does is yell about how the business is failing and how we got to make more money. And then once he gets a little bit of money, he calms down a little bit, but it's still a gigantic asshole. That's the character. I think he does a really good job with it, but I will 100% get on board with what you're saying and am 100% on board with what you're saying, that while a terrific performance for Glenn Howerton, it is one note.

Right, right.

It is.

And really, that's all he's asked to do. This is not a fault of his. If anything, it's a fault of the writing. But I do think he's probably the best example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. He's like, Yeah, I don't know anything about this technology, but I'm going to sell it. I'm going to make it work. And for a while he does, but of course makes many, many mistakes along the way. Any time the SEC is calling your business, that's not good. Nothing good comes of that phone call no matter what. So, so when that starts happening, you can tell things are certainly going to go the wrong direction.

But the perfect example of Matt Johnson just being Matt Johnson. Yeah. Who's this?

SEC?

It's movie night. I can't talk to you.

Yeah. It hangs up like, just nope. And I—

And then never tells anybody about it. It's the best.

Nope. They'll call someone else. They'll call back, whatever. It's the SEC. They're not gonna not call back. So I think Baruchel or Baruchel, however you pronounce his name, I think, I think it's pretty excellent here. He is an undersung actor to me. I think I've always liked him as a performer. I don't think he's, you know, a great or anything like that, but like, he, he does the job on the paper. Like, I think he always does a really good job. And the fact that he is kind of the soft-spoken one and has to build into being kind of a dick, I think really works. Um, I think especially in the beginning really works. I also really enjoy Matt Johnson's performance. And yeah, is he playing himself? Yeah, a little bit, but I think it's needed here. I think that it's the kind of counterbalance to our other 2 lead characters. Like, you need the guy who's like, what the fuck are you talking about? That's not— that's— don't sell him the cup. No, that's not what we agreed on. Like, so he's your tonic in the desert. Yeah. And he's your key to this movie. And he's your key to knowing that we're making the wrong decisions, that things are going to go wrong. And as a filmmaker, I think considering this is pretty early in his career, I think he has a lot of interesting ideas visually. I like the fact that he uses the actual BlackBerry, you know, kind of typing out what year it is before we've kind of changed things. I think that's a really simple, smart decision that he makes. And I just think most of this movie really works. I don't think this movie was ever destined for greatness. I think its goal was to be an entertaining fiction, very loosely based on truth. I mean, anytime you have a movie that repeatedly just mispronounces a name so you can say the term ballsilly, it's just like, yeah, this is—

Yeah.

This is the type of movie that we're making here. And it's funny, if you, if you just look up this movie on the internet, it basically says a fictionalized, overdramatized version of the story of the BlackBerry.

Yeah.

So I love that they've, they've gotten out in front of it and been like, this isn't like real. This is like, there's stuff in here that's real. There's real people, but we're, we're pumping it up a little bit or a lot bit in this case. And I will say, for in defense of Howerton, I'm from Waterloo, where the vampires hang out, is one of the best line readings of the last 10 years. Like, it is really, like, just separate from anything else. It is incredible. It makes no sense. It doesn't— there's no, there's no moment in the movie where, like, yeah, where the vampires— that's not what it— it never comes up before and never comes up again. And I love that it just flies out of his mouth in a rage, which really suits the character that they have built throughout this movie, is that he, he makes mistakes.

He acts.

Acts impulsively.

Like, literally in the beginning of the movie, he just cannot—

he cannot give anyone else the spotlight for 2 minutes. So he gets himself fired because he refuses to let the math guy talk about the math. He's like, no, no, I'll do it. I don't know anything. And again, another example of that Dunning-Kruger effect, right? I don't know anything about that, but I'm just gonna look at it and yeah, I kind of got it. I understand it. We know how to steal money too. It's fine. And it's just like, no, that's not It's not what your boss told you to do. And now you put yourself in this position. And he literally is so confident that he gives a business card with a phone number scratched out, like, and it's just like gonna play it off like, yeah, it's my business card. Totally normal thing to have. And it's like, who would do that? And it works because he's just confident enough. And these guys, in terms of business, don't know any better. They're just like, yeah, this is where we're at. Exactly.

What I think is so fun about this movie is that, yeah, you said it, it's fictionalized, at least loosely fictionalized, but based on— it is based on a book, Losing the Signal: The Untold Story Behind the Extraordinary Rise and Spectacular Fall of BlackBerry. Holy subtitle. But anyway, that's a lot. It is. It really brilliantly captures that just— I mean, it captures the Dunning-Kruger effect, but the irrational confidence of this guy kind of not— they're all making it up as they go along, and they think they're making up the rules as they go along. The rules of business, which— in which there are laws.

Yes.

That you cannot break. Like backdating stock options to— like, He literally at one point, Glenn Howerton's character playing Jim Balsillie, who real quickly, the casting for Jay Baruchel as, or at least the hairstyling for Jay Baruchel is spot on. But the casting for Howerton in a bald cap as Jim Balsillie is ballsy, is spot on. I just looked him up and it's really solid stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. And I will say Baruchel's wig could use some work. That's—

it could definitely use some work. Ridiculous. So if you look at Michael Lazaridis's hair, it's pretty ridiculous. So they, they got that part, they got that job done. Like, if this was a satire, and which many ways kind of comes off—

I, I think it is totally that way.

Very much satire. It's, it's perfect. Um, but there is literally a moment in this film where, uh, Jim Bosley, uh, goes to what I believe is the then, like, head of engineering at Google, played by Rich Sommer. who is an all-time that guy.

Wasn't he in Mad Men? Am I remembering correctly?

He was in Mad Men.

Yes.

Yeah. All-time that guy, at least. And now I feel like I see him all the time. And he says to him, I will, I will pay you $1 million. Okay, you don't want that? How about $2 million? Okay, how about $3 million? $5 million? Fuck it, $10 million. And I will backdate all of the stock options to when they were very low so that you get all of it. It's like, you do that. That's not how the world works. This is literally— that is, this, this isn't make-believe. We are like, you're fucked if you do that. But he doesn't care because as long as the deal happens as he envisions it happening, that's what matters. And that is why the movie is like perfectly encapsulates that Dunning-Kruger effect of I as long as I think I'm the smartest guy in the room and present myself as the smartest guy in the room, people are eventually going to have to listen until it catches up to you.

Right, right.

As it does. Like, there, there is an ongoing thing in the film, and I would assume in real life, although I don't know the specifics of Jim Balsillie's interests, but he is obsessed with hockey. Yeah. And of course, this is a Canadian film, and BlackBerry was founded in Canada, so it makes sense. Hockey is the, is the go-to. He's obsessed with hockey to the point where when he gets to a certain level of success, he is in talks to buy the Penguins, um, the NHL team. And then he goes to, uh, he is basically North America hopping, um, to get from one place to the other to try to make every deal under the sun happen. Fuck it, I'm gonna do it all, I believe he says to the pilot.

Yeah.

of his private jet and gets in the meeting with the NHL and they go, yeah, this isn't going to happen because you are— your reputation is—

You're a piece of garbage. You're awful.

You're a walking nightmare for us. And that's when he says, I'm from Waterloo where the vampires hang out. And it's like that again, can't help but maybe take a look in the mirror and be like, I thought this was a lock and they're telling me I am the worst Person alive, and I love that his reaction is like, "I'm gonna buy the whole NHL." Like yeah, like that's not. No, you're not.

That's not gonna happen.

It's not for sale, and you don't have the money if you wanted to.

No.

And if you think you do, you'll just get caught eventually.

Yes.

Yes. It's just a really, really fun look at that kind of person.

Yeah. I think the the most interesting thing about this movie to me that was done in terms of writing and directing is this. full circle moment with the, with the buzzing in the, in the very beginning of the film.

Yeah.

Virgil's character is just, he can't deal with the fact that this piece of technology is faulty and making this noise and we just accept it. And that says everything about that character is he's trying to make changes that will make things better. And that's how the BlackBerry kind of starts and he fixes that. And I think the movie also does an excellent job at explaining what the BlackBerry is doing and what it's doing with the limitations of the system that it's working in and still manages to think outside the box and build something that wasn't there before. And then by the end of the movie, we're getting these giant shipments of all these new BlackBerrys. And because they have gone against their values and they have been made outside the country, it's starting to make this buzz. And what does he do? He takes out the first one and fixes it. And then you can almost see this kind of realization that, like, I've gone too far. There's nothing I can do about this. There are thousands and thousands and thousands of these units, and I can't fix them.

I—

everything that I did to make good changes is now gone because we have gone too far, because I didn't listen to my friend, because I, I went— I flew too close to the sun. And I wanted to be the most powerful person in this world, and now I can't even fix the simplest thing. There is a deep sadness in that moment, even though he has done things by this point in the movie where you're like, I don't really like this guy anymore, this guy kind of sucks. But that little moment, I think, is really well-defined and really well-structured by Johnson. I think he does a really good job there. And given everything crazy that happens during this movie and the excess and the craziness and the yelling and the screaming. It's that little quiet moment that I think I remember most, that, that's what I walk away from. This, like, this depression, this sadness of like, all I wanted to do was make a product that, that filled the gap, that fixed a problem. And I would've been happy just doing that. But here I am at quote unquote the top of the world and I can't even fix the simplest thing. I think it's kind of brilliant in that moment.

It is really brilliant in that moment. It's an awesome full circle moment that when these movies get them right, you kind of— I mean, last week we were talking about Portrait of a Lady on Fire and The Number 28, like, not, not comparable movies, but when you get those full circle moments— yeah, totally the same. And the romance between—

no.

If only they're not comparable, but full circle moments that really hit, they get that reaction out of you. And it— I mean, even if movie wasn't necessarily everything you wanted it to be, your mileage can always vary. But if that moment works, you are undoubtedly going to have a reaction. And it gets me every time. Now I've seen it 3 times, and every time I'm like, Damn, that's good. And there's a lot of writing in the movie that also does those same things that a lot of rooted in truth or based on fact, based on a true story films do well, which is little lines here and there.

Right.

You know, like, they're watching Apple present the first ever iPhone. Why would anybody want a phone without a keyboard? Well, you're watching this in 2023. And who knows, you might be watching it on a phone without a keyboard that is just one big screen. Yeah, it is on Netflix. Netflix has an app. You might be watching it on your iPhone.

That's right.

And there's others. There's other ones like, oh, when, when Jim is doing his, I'm going to go do everything, I'm going to go to the NHL and get the team, doesn't get that. Okay, now fly me to Atlanta where I'm going to get the deal from Stan Sigman. He says, Stan, come on, you owe me. You sold a lot of minutes because of us. Stan. Yeah, but you know what the problem with selling minutes is? Jim. First, first question he's been asked all film where he doesn't have some smart retort. He truly doesn't know what this guy's about to say. What? There's only 1 minute in a minute.

That's— That's a great written line.

Really great line. Little, little things like that. You ever heard of the— are you familiar with the saying perfect is the enemy of good? Well, yeah, your good ended up being the enemy of the SEC. So yeah, maybe you should have gone with perfect. But it's just, I just think it's a really smart movie. And I think Matt Johnson is a really smart guy.

Yeah. What was the line? I think good enough is the enemy of humanity was the line. Yeah.

That's good enough. Good.

And think about how much he changes by the end of the movie. Like, he's just like, well, ship them to China. good enough. We're gonna, you know, we have to do it. So here we are.

I think that's one of the things that I like so much about Johnson's role here is one beyond just I like spending time with this cool guy, is that he's the one person who you don't see really a change in. Like when—

He's true to himself.

Yeah. When Jim, when Jim goes to his investors and is like, here's the new thing. I got the new phone. They're like, that's not gonna compare to the iPhone. And he originally wants to go to that— I'm sorry, when Mike goes to the meeting, he originally wants to go to the meeting with Jim.

Right.

But Jim is off too busy trying to buy an NHL team. So he says, okay, Doug, come with me. Do you have a suit? Doug puts on a suit. What does he not take off? That Freaking headband.

God bless him. God bless him.

And what's even better is that that's just kind of how Matt Johnson tends to dress.

100%.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He showed up to a draft with the big picture in, in at the TIFF Lightbox, I believe, last weekend. And he was, he was wearing like cinched sweatpants that he pulled up above his calves.

God bless him.

He's like, he's the best. Um, but yeah, it's just, uh, there— I, I really like rise and fall stories when they're done well, and I think this one is, is one of the better ones we've seen recently. You know, like you said, I am higher on it than you, but I, I feel like you would probably agree with that just based on the fact that many of them are quite bad. So yeah, they suck. Yeah, you know, like I'm thinking of, uh, of another story, not similar, but I want to say it came out around the same time, like Craig Gillespie's Dumb Money, the GameStop movie. I thought that movie was okay. Yeah, it's fine, but I wasn't invested in anything and I knew the story.

It's a good pun there. Invested.

Well, I wish I knew I was doing it when I was doing it. I'm just that good. Yes. But really, like, I am— I don't want to be invested. in something, if I'm going into a movie about it, I don't want to have— well, not always. I'm talking about like based on truth. Like if I am very close to the news where this happened, I'm like, all right, well, I'm curious to see how they do it. And more often than not, they fuck it up. Yeah, that's why The Social Reckoning is not really high on my list of anticipated movies this year. But BlackBerry totally fits the bill.

Yeah, totally. And, you know, it's more the last thing I'll bring up. It's another example that like True-to-life biopics kind of suck. It's not interesting. I mean, you brought up the social reckoning. The Social Network is not true to life. It is absolutely dramatized and fictionalized, but it's— But it's like a work of fucking genius. It's incredible. And this is also quite good. Like, this is— I think this is a movie that for me suffered from expectation, where everyone I talked to was like, oh my God, it was so great. It's so much better than you'd imagine. And it was like, oh, great, let's fucking pump the brakes, guys. Like, this was good. It was enjoyable. And it's a, it's, it's a movie that, like, you know, passes that 2-hour, like, if this was on TNT, like, test, I'd be like, yeah, I'll sit down and watch this. But I don't think this would make, like, any best-of lists or anything like that. I think it's a perfectly fine, serviceable, entertaining movie. And most of that entertaining is because of Matt Johnson. Like, you can feel, knowing who he is now, you can feel his fingerprints all over this movie.

100%.

Like, this, this is purely a Matt Johnson movie. Like, and if you had told me I'd be talking about Matt Johnson as an auteur, I'm not sure I would've believed you, but here we are. So hopefully Tony fits that bill too. I really hope that, 'cause I do think after watching this movie again and watching Nirvana, I do think strangely Bourdain and Johnson is— and Johnson are like a kind of an interesting match, and I think something that probably is gonna work. So after watching this, I am more excited about Tony than I was before. So that's something. So now I'm looking—

I was already plenty excited, and then I rewatched Blackberry. I was like, oh, fuck yeah.

Yeah, let's, let's do it for sure. All right, uh, so before we head out What are you working on? Where can people find you? What's happening in Will's life?

What's happening in Will's life? Well, let's not get into that. Um, I keep things close to the vest, David. No. Um, I am gonna have— well, it's the start of August, so we'll probably have some new reviews on my docket, but you'll certainly see reviews of the film Crossing, the film Rose Bush Pruning, and the film Her Private Hell from me. As well as the first installment in my new series at In Session following Direction, which focuses on lesser considered themes that are just as present as the popular ones in directors' filmographies. So excited to be working on that and, uh, getting my fingers working again rather than fiddling, diddling around in Adobe Premiere.

Yes.

forbid.

Much better.

Yes, yes, I agree. Hope my employer doesn't listen to this. What about you? Where can they find you? Where can they find the show?

What do you want? You can find the show at Pop Case Study on every social media outlet. You can also find me at every social media outlet at Darn That Dave. Not sure what I'll be working on about the time this comes out. Obviously still doing a bunch of editing at In Session. I'll probably have some reviews at Geek Vibes Nation. I will be using my digital red pen on all of Will's work to make it serviceable. You know, I'm just trying to help a guy out. You know, if you—

I'm glad you brought that up. If you ever read a word of mine, it wasn't me. I am a hack. Thank God for Dave.

I will interrupt this just for one second to tell you all that he is lying. Will is one of the easiest writers to edit. Thank God he is a gift in comparison to some of the other pieces that I have to edit.

So, thank you.

So yeah, you should absolutely read his work. But next week—

I paid back my In Session salary to get you to say that.

Yeah, your $0. Well done. So next week we are continuing with the Year of Hathaway. We are covering yet another Anne Hathaway movie, which is The End of Oak Street, which is directed by David Robert Mitchell of It Follows fame, but we will not be covering It Follows. We are returning to a movie that I did not like upon release and have continually told people, including Will, that I'm going to rewatch it. I'm going to give it another shot. So we are looking at Under the Silver Lake.

Good luck.

Starring Andrew Garfield. Yes. Good luck to us both. So until next time, we will be here diagnosing your favorites and judging you for what you watch.